Curse

Still Number One · Oct 06, 2009, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

oh...i get it now...the point of this contest was to make horrible skill bars...why didn't i realize this earlier? i would have submitted my echo mending bar.

The point of the contest was to get the community involved and give you the illusion that you were a part of something important in Guild Wars. If you actually think upgrading PvP henchmen is an important update you seriously need your head examined. It is a pointless update and in order to make it seem not so pointless they decided to turn it into a contest to give the feeling that they actually care about the community.

They are really just trying to keep things interesting until GW2 comes out, while avoiding any major changes. They thought a contest would do that, and all it ended up doing was upsetting people.

snaek · Oct 06, 2009, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by still number one

If you actually think upgrading PvP henchmen is an important update you seriously need your head examined.

so instead of picking decent bars as winners and have it be done with already, they picked bad bars so they can waste even more time on this pointless update trying to improve the ai? as dreamwind pointed it out...don't you think its kind of ironic how they choose to improve the ai after removing hero battles and also after stating that heroes do not belong in gvg/ha?

Giga_Gaia · Oct 06, 2009, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

I think you are all better off not complaining and in fact utilizing this guru forum resource to offer suggestions in relation to the future updates the development team has planned to implement to correct the effectiveness of the bars.

Except Anet has a notable track record of ignoring what the community says and instead goes out to do their own thing, with not-so-desirable results.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

Snip

You seem to be missing (more like ignoring) the point that upset so many. Here they are:

1. Martin specifically told us that gimmicks/meta builds would not be accepted, yet most of the builds there are gimmicks/meta builds.
2. Martin also said that they wanted robust builds that would be resistant to skill changes, yet there is a Mind Blast Ele bar that just got recently nerfed.
3. Mis-communication or not, anyone can see that you making these legal jargon up right now is you guys trying to avert blame/refusing that you screwed up, and this ignorance (obviously) pisses people off even more.
4. You wasted valuable time and resources into this contest even though you could have been spent the time on more dire issues.
5. You now need to waste even more time/resources adjusting the AI to make them even remotely useful; except that given your record, this will likely either take ages or won't even work, period.

There are obviously more, but you guys would probably ignore this, like you ignored most of the stuff that has been said by the community.

EDIT: Also couldn't help but notice, at the beginning of this thread, you posted the guidelines of this contest and told us that we should have followed those instead; now you're trying to re-word your own official rules in your favor to wash your hands clean. Bravo.

DreamWind · Oct 06, 2009, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

This rule specifically cover violating another copyright holder's rights, which is a standard rule for contests where you submit information. People who enter the contest, upon doing so, basically state that they aren't breaking any copyright laws by entering the contest.

Linsey explained things a little further in terms of why she and Robert picked the skills they did for the winners:

Magic: The Gathering has a similar situation to Guild Wars: good decks are good decks. Individual players do not hold exclusive copyright or trademarks to use those decks. Lots of people play the same kinds of decks (i.e. those decks are popular), sometimes with slight variations, for one reason: they are effective. There are sites out there devoted to Magic: The Gathering strategies, on how to build the best decks, what cards to put in those decks, etc. This information is available to the public.

Likewise, in Guild Wars, good builds are good builds. Linsey was looking for builds that would be competitive and effective for GvG and HA. This is why the contest rules asked players to "devise potent, effective skill bars for the new henchmen in GvG and Heroes Ascent" and to come up with "great, competitive, henchman skill bars". There are certain builds that meet all of the design criteria that Linsey and Robert were looking for. Linsey and Robert had to balance a lot of needs and wants when judging the entries for this contest.

Oh....my....goodness. I am going to try my hardness not to be a troll at this point because it would probably get my post deleted or nobody would read it. Instead I will try to make this as simple as possible.

The first part of the post about copyrights etc etc is meaningless. Besides the fact that it is ridiculous, it completely ignores the reasons everybody is saying this contest was a debacle. I would post the things that have been ignored, but that has already been done several hundred times. If you haven't seen it by now, you probably won't see it in this post either.

The part about Magic the Gathering appalled me quite honestly. This situation has nothing in common with the situation in MTG whatsoever. Until MTG has AI playing the decks, it will never have anything in common. The suggestion that "good decks are good decks" again completely ignores peoples' problem. But again, if you haven't read the problems by now you probably won't here either.

Lastly, it is nice to see Lindsey and Robert are working on GW1 still. But I would like to know the thought process that went behind choosing these builds. Please ask them for me directly if you can. Ask them this specifically:

If the contest wanted us to "devise potent, effective skill bars for the new henchmen in GvG and Heroes Ascent" and to come up with "great, competitive, henchman skill bars", why is it that almost everything we got was not potent, not effective for the henchmen, not great, not competitive, and not good for henchmen skill bars and AI?? In otherwords, why is it we got the exact opposite of what the contest was looking for? The design criteria makes no sense at all.

If the answer to that is that the AI is going to be updated to reflect the changes to the henchmen, then I have one last question. Why wasn't AI updated all these years when, you know, a format based around AI existed? Why remove a format due to AI issues only to say you are fixing AI after the format has been removed? It does seem like quite an odd jump doesn't it? It almost feels like you removed cars from the game only to then cause a car crash for the sole purpose of putting a bandaid on the victim.

To me it is almost nuts. But maybe not? Please...solve these logical problems for me. Thanks for reading.

El Presidente · Oct 06, 2009, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

Let's look at the relevant sections of the official rules:

Quote:
"Originality: Entries must be the submission of the contestant and cannot be taken from any other source. Your submission must not infringe on any patent, copyright, trademark or other intellectual property right, or any privacy, publicity or publishing rights of any third party, or be libelous, obscene or otherwise contrary to law."

Quote:
"you warrant that your entry is your own original work and that it does not violate any rights of any third party".

This rule specifically cover violating another copyright holder's rights, which is a standard rule for contests where you submit information. People who enter the contest, upon doing so, basically state that they aren't breaking any copyright laws by entering the contest.

ArenaNet, the company that owns the copyright to those skills, gave folks who entered the contest the right to use those skills to create builds that they would like to see incorporated in the game. By entering the contest, winners have given us our word that they came up with the skill combination they submitted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

since none of the builds in PvX wiki are copyrighted, the winners did not cheat.

Yes, let's do take a look at all the words in the relevant sections. Do you see where it states, "cannot be taken from any other source". Twice now, you've posted the same rules. Twice now, you've highlighted the same words; yet, failed to highlight 'any other source'. What you keep highlighting is only one part of the rules. The "any other source" is a complete and seperate rule from the "copyright" rule. All rules stated must be adhered to. Not just what rule(s) you wish. You fail to see them all or skip over what you want to. Granted, the builds in PvXwiki are not copyrighted. Anet may own the skills but that doesn't mean they were the first to think of the builds posted there or on any other similar site(s). PvXwiki, Gamependium, etc. are still 'another source' and whether or not it's copyrighted, if the build is copied from "any other source" or was thought of first by another (not original), it's a violation of/per your own rules.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Firestorm

The bars are the problem, not the legalities.

The bars are a problem. Hopefully, Anet can do as they said and make them feasible. Time will tell. As to legalities, that's your opinion. I disagree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Firestorm

But where they do offer it, they are the final arbiter.
Anet is GW's supreme court.

Wrong. Again, your opinion...but not fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GW.com

...resolved under the laws of the State of Washington...and exclusively by the U.S. Federal and State Courts of King County, Washington, U.S.A

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

Only two of the winning skill bars had more than 50 duplicate entries. All the rest had less than 10 others submitting the same bar, and 23 winning skill bars were completely unique in the contest.

You've already stated this. Since you like numbers so much, have you also looked in to how many of the winning builds are very similar to ones posted on PvXwiki and other build sites? C'mon, 6/8...sometimes 7/8 of the same skills, including the optional or variant makes 8/8? That's just the first two of the HA winning builds I checked. Copywrited? No. Their "own original work"? Hell no. A lot of players here see what you do not...or will not admit to.

As to the bars, well, as it's been stated by so many...they suck. They are not the "potent, effective skill bars" the majority wanted to see. I'd much rather you spend time tweaking what you have to, instead of posting replies full of holes and, basically, with diversions such as MtG and how you feel it's the same as (or try and relate it to) the mess you've created this time around.

Lex · Oct 06, 2009, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

Likewise, in Guild Wars, good builds are good builds. Linsey was looking for builds that would be competitive and effective for GvG and HA.

Yes, BUT good build played by human is not always good build when it is played by AI!!!!!! I have computer edition of Magic: the Gathering game. This one. And guess what? It can play well but some of good builds are unplayable because of AI flaws. Here we have the same problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

This is why the contest rules asked players to "devise potent, effective skill bars for the new henchmen in GvG and Heroes Ascent" and to come up with "great, competitive, henchman skill bars".

Yes, HENCHMAN skill bars, not skill bars for human.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

Many of those builds and strategies are publicized on places like PvXWiki, but also in guild forums, alliance forums, strategy guides, etc. They are out there in public for a reason: players have found them to be effective.

Yes, but found them as effective FOR HUMAN.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

Linsey and Robert had to keep in mind a lot of different needs and goals for this contest.

Obviously, they did not keep in mind what Martin wanted:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Kerstein

Ok, let me clarify a couple of things here:

- We will manually pick the winning skill bars.
- We do want robust, general purpose builds, not some niche meta builds or builds that will not be immediately made obsolete by meta shifts.
- Common gimmick builds are not very likely to be picked

The point of this contest is not to find a 1:1 replacement for Heroes, but to offer henchmen with useful skillbars (read: useful but not making use of the AI advantages that certain Hero builds had) for players, who want to compete but are not able to field 8 human players.

They are not meant to replace human players.

Not meta bars, not gimmick bars, useful for henchmen. And what we got?

See? Blah.

And the whole "originality explanation" makes mi sick....

FrostymcPewPew · Oct 06, 2009, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

Only two of the winning skill bars had more than 50 duplicate entries. All the rest had less than 10 others submitting the same bar, and 23 winning skill bars were completely unique in the contest.

Like I said in my first post, this wasn't because they are "original", "unique", but because people didn't think posting meta builds would win the competition...

wow, just, wow.

]HM[ Sabre Wolf · Oct 06, 2009, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Regina... no offense to you... you have done your best with the situation... but I think at this point what the community is looking for is Martin to post an explanation about his post below during the contest...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Kerstein

Ok, let me clarify a couple of things here:

- We will manually pick the winning skill bars.
- We do want robust, general purpose builds, not some niche meta builds or builds that will not be immediately made obsolete by meta shifts.
- Common gimmick builds are not very likely to be picked

The point of this contest is not to find a 1:1 replacement for Heroes, but to offer henchmen with useful skillbars (read: useful but not making use of the AI advantages that certain Hero builds had) for players, who want to compete but are not able to field 8 human players.

They are not meant to replace human players.

Whether its an explination... an appology... or something for the community to recognize why he said that statement above and Lindsey and Robert going the opposite direction. I feel that the community as a whole is actually looking for this and not a rules/law explanation. I don't mean to call him out persay... but I think at this point, the entire community is looking for him or Lindsey and Robert.

And will everyone else please stop the jabbing... we all get the point... I think this is what everyone truly wants... which is an unfortunate situation for everyone.

DreamWind · Oct 06, 2009, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by ]HM[ Sabre Wolf

And will everyone else please stop the jabbing... we all get the point... I think this is what everyone truly wants... which is an unfortunate situation for everyone.

I think they have a lot more explaining to do than just that (which I have outlined in my post). Sure they don't have to, but the fact that they have not done so reasonably yet had just added to the problem.

Inde · Oct 06, 2009, 03:14 AM // 03:14

This thread is deteriorating with overly hostile posts. I will give this another 24 hours (that does not mean a free-for-all) and then we will close it. The continued calls for Community Management to respond to this situation, when they have all ready which I will list below, is not helping as you can see they have indeed posted on this situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina

Congrats to the winners.

The AI for the henchmen will be tweaked and improved as appropriate.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...37#post4880737

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina

We're aware of the criticism that some of the winners have builds that are popular. It probably wasn't that surprising that players were going to submit builds that are proven and commonly-used. Popular and commonly-used builds got submitted by many, many people, and they are popular for a reason: they're effective. The designers did extensive in-game research on what builds were being played and what builds people were looking for when forming a party. Many people submitted the same build to the contest, but a significant portion of the winners had unique bars that no one else had submitted. There were a lot of factors the designers had to keep in mind: whether those winning henchmen bars will get play and if players would want to use them, whether those bars will be effective, how those builds fit with overall design goals, and so on. They weren't judging the winning bars based on only a couple of factors. So while we're aware that not everyone is satisfied with the results, the team just wanted to let you know about the balance issues they were wrestling with when judging those submissions.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...33#post4881133

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina

The dev team has stated to me that the reason certain builds were chosen is because they're effective, they work for the game, and they meet their overall design goals for those formats.

Each winner will have to sign and return a Declaration of Eligibility and Liability Release form, confirming that they are eligible to participate in the contest and that they have obeyed the rules of the contest.

This contest isn't exactly like submitting a piece of art. Every single person has access to the same building blocks, so it stands to chance that multiple people will have independently thought of and submitted the same or similar sets of skills. By signing and returning the release form to us, those winners are declaring on a legal document that they thought of those builds themselves.

In some cases where multiple people submitted the same set of skills; the winner was determined by a die roll.

Another note: remember that Guild Wars is always changing. The design team may decide to modify the henchmen in the future if they feel it's appropriate, this includes tweaking their AI, or even changing their skills.

These were the guidelines as listed in the official rules:

Quote:

"We want you to devise potent, effective skill bars for the new henchmen in GvG and Heroes Ascent."

"Do you have ideas for great, competitive henchmen skill bars? Enter your best skill bars in our Henchman Skill Bar Contest!"

"Entries will be judged on the basis of merit and appropriateness to game design considerations as determined by the Development Team."

Here are some interesting stats for you.

Of the winning builds, we had:

1 Build -> 62 submissions
1 Build -> 51 submissions
1 Build -> 9 submissions
1 Build -> 5 submissions
3 Builds -> 4 submissions
2 Builds -> 3 submissions
8 Builds -> 2 submissions
23 Builds -> 1 submission

So this means that more than half of the winning builds were not submitted by anyone else. This is out of over 30 000 submissions.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...87#post4881387

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

Guys, the official rules state: "Entries must be the submission of the contestant and cannot be taken from any other source. ''Your submission must not infringe on any patent, copyright, trademark or other intellectual property right, or any privacy, publicity or publishing rights of any third party, or be libelous, obscene or otherwise contrary to law.''

This means that entries should be original to the extent that they do not violate another person's copyright or trademark. The skills used in Guild Wars are owned by ArenaNet, the sponsors of this contest. Using those skills and putting them into particular combinations is not violating a third party's rights. That is what's meant by "originality".

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedb...hmen_Contes t

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina

A lot of people are still concerned about the fact that some of those builds are on external databases like PvXWiki. Folks are concerned that the winners haven't followed the rules of the contest because some of the winning builds are available for public viewing on websites like PvXWiki.

Let's look at the relevant sections of the official rules:

Quote:

"Originality: Entries must be the submission of the contestant and cannot be taken from any other source. Your submission must not infringe on any patent, copyright, trademark or other intellectual property right, or any privacy, publicity or publishing rights of any third party, or be libelous, obscene or otherwise contrary to law."

Quote:

"you warrant that your entry is your own original work and that it does not violate any rights of any third party".

This rule specifically cover violating another copyright holder's rights, which is a standard rule for contests where you submit information. People who enter the contest, upon doing so, basically state that they aren't breaking any copyright laws by entering the contest.

ArenaNet, the company that owns the copyright to those skills, gave folks who entered the contest the right to use those skills to create builds that they would like to see incorporated in the game. By entering the contest, winners have given us our word that they came up with the skill combination they submitted.

Linsey explained things a little further in terms of why she and Robert picked the skills they did for the winners:

Magic: The Gathering has a similar situation to Guild Wars: good decks are good decks. Individual players do not hold exclusive copyright or trademarks to use those decks. Lots of people play the same kinds of decks (i.e. those decks are popular), sometimes with slight variations, for one reason: they are effective. There are sites out there devoted to Magic: The Gathering strategies, on how to build the best decks, what cards to put in those decks, etc. This information is available to the public.

Likewise, in Guild Wars, good builds are good builds. Linsey was looking for builds that would be competitive and effective for GvG and HA. This is why the contest rules asked players to "devise potent, effective skill bars for the new henchmen in GvG and Heroes Ascent" and to come up with "great, competitive, henchman skill bars". There are certain builds that meet all of the design criteria that Linsey and Robert were looking for. Linsey and Robert had to balance a lot of needs and wants when judging the entries for this contest. Because there are certain builds that are more appropriate for this than others, one expects a certain amount of duplication. Many of those builds and strategies are publicized on places like PvXWiki, but also in guild forums, alliance forums, strategy guides, etc. They are out there in public for a reason: players have found them to be effective. Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that there's no room for innovation or imagination. Only two of the winning skill bars had more than 50 duplicate entries. All the rest had less than 10 others submitting the same bar, and 23 winning skill bars were completely unique in the contest. Keep in mind another fact: Linsey and Robert wanted those henchmen to be equipped with skills that they know players will know how to use and will want to use.

Linsey and Robert had to keep in mind a lot of different needs and goals for this contest. I've been keeping them in the loop with your comments and concerns.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...55#post4885555

Please stay on topic and contributing. I know that if ArenaNet has anything else official to say we will pass that along but I am quite confident we all know the issues and the complaints. ArenaNet has responded, and though some may not be happy with the response, I believe they have given us all the information they can.

DreamWind · Oct 06, 2009, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

The continued calls for Community Management to respond to this situation, when they have all ready which I will list below, is not helping as you can see they have indeed posted on this situation.

ArenaNet has responded, and though some may not be happy with the response, I believe they have given us all the information they can.

The problem here is the information they have given us doesn't actually respond to our problems at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

This thread is deteriorating with overly hostile posts. I will give this another 24 hours (that does not mean a free-for-all) and then we will close it.

If Anet had responded to our problems, this thread would no longer need to be open. The fact that it is still heavily populated clearly shows the issue is not resolved. Closing it early simply shuts the problem down before it is resolved. I disagree with your decision, but whatever...it is your forum and not ours.

Giga_Gaia · Oct 06, 2009, 03:46 AM // 03:46

I'm honestly surprised that this thread managed to stay open for so long. I guess thanks for bearing with our complaints Inde (although I still feel that they are valid and the last few pages are people getting impatient with Anet's ignorance and lack of a proper explanation).

Lex · Oct 06, 2009, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Inde, but in every above response Regina is missing the most important points of this thread.

They were started by this contest's rules and were assured by Martin in a post I quoted.

Points are: builds should be original (= not meta) and useful for henches (= not humans).

Regina in every post is trying to defend unquestionable lack of originality of submitted builds and is talking over and over again about giving human bars to henches - we all know it will be epic fail because appropriate AI update will not happen in the foreseeable future.

Inde · Oct 06, 2009, 04:14 AM // 04:14

I know all the points you 3 are making but I can also see that Community Management, by reiterating the same thing twice now, has taken a position on this. Quite frankly, I can see both sides of this issue and I do believe the community vs. anet is at an impasse. I don't think this issue has at all been hidden or swept under the rug from ArenaNet, but I can't see any new information being provided except for the dissection line-by-line of posts now and hostility. I said 24 hours and I'll give it that, if the conversation can take a turn or some discussion can still continue I can always reconsider. I did not want to leave all of you abruptly cut off from such a passionate stance and viewpoint which is why I gave the warning.

DreamWind · Oct 06, 2009, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

I know all the points you 3 are making but I can also see that Community Management, by reiterating the same thing twice now, has taken a position on this. Quite frankly, I can see both sides of this issue and I do believe the community vs. anet is at an impasse.

Are you saying the position they have taken is to not respond properly to the issue at hand?

What they have reiterated doesn't do anything to answer the questions the community has.

Inde · Oct 06, 2009, 04:26 AM // 04:26

I don't understand Dreamwind. They have addressed the questions. Just because the answers might not be liked does not mean they have skipped over any.

What about Martin's post/rules/guidelines saying builds had to be original?

Quote:

Guys, the official rules state: "Entries must be the submission of the contestant and cannot be taken from any other source. ''Your submission must not infringe on any patent, copyright, trademark or other intellectual property right, or any privacy, publicity or publishing rights of any third party, or be libelous, obscene or otherwise contrary to law.''

This means that entries should be original to the extent that they do not violate another person's copyright or trademark. The skills used in Guild Wars are owned by ArenaNet, the sponsors of this contest. Using those skills and putting them into particular combinations is not violating a third party's rights. That is what's meant by "originality".

What about builds that seem to be copied from the Wiki?

Quote:

Because there are certain builds that are more appropriate for this than others, one expects a certain amount of duplication. Many of those builds and strategies are publicized on places like PvXWiki, but also in guild forums, alliance forums, strategy guides, etc. They are out there in public for a reason: players have found them to be effective. Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that there's no room for innovation or imagination. Only two of the winning skill bars had more than 50 duplicate entries. All the rest had less than 10 others submitting the same bar, and 23 winning skill bars were completely unique in the contest. Keep in mind another fact: Linsey and Robert wanted those henchmen to be equipped with skills that they know players will know how to use and will want to use.

What about the AI not being usable in some of these builds for henchman?

Quote:

The AI for the henchmen will be tweaked and improved as appropriate.

Are you guys even listening to us?

Quote:

We're aware of the criticism that some of the winners have builds that are popular.

Quote:

Linsey and Robert had to keep in mind a lot of different needs and goals for this contest. I've been keeping them in the loop with your comments and concerns.

I see most of the questions answered. As I said, we may not like the answers but they are there.

Swehurn · Oct 06, 2009, 04:36 AM // 04:36

I would appreciate clarification on this:

Quote:

This means that entries should be original to the extent that they do not violate another person's copyright or trademark. The skills used in Guild Wars are owned by ArenaNet, the sponsors of this contest. Using those skills and putting them into particular combinations is not violating a third party's rights. That is what's meant by "originality".

By this comment, every single entry was "original", as I don't think anybody posted a build that used a skill from outside of GW...and if this was the definition they used when designing the rules, there was no need for that rule.

Smells like back-pedal to me.

I do understand the wiki comments...I doubt there are many (if any) truly effective builds that aren't on pvx somewhere.

DreamWind · Oct 06, 2009, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

I don't understand Dreamwind. They have addressed the questions. Just because the answers might not be liked does not mean they have skipped over any.

I see most of the questions answered. As I said, we may not like the answers but they are there.

Sigh...

I can't believe you of all people are accepting those as answers Inde. Those aren't answers to the questions. What has happened here is Anet has given a politician answer. The public has asked them 1-2 simple questions and they respond with extremely long answers that don't actually address the original questions. Not to mention, every one of those answers has an extremely obvious followup question (which I have posted previously) that has not been answered either.

If that is something you can accept, then so be it lock the thread. But I enjoy common sense and conclusions in my discussions.

Motoko · Oct 06, 2009, 05:52 AM // 05:52

lol you are doing a fantasic job Inde.

@dream.... what difference does it make if Inde accepts those as answers or not? I don't think that is the situation here. Inde has provided the questions that have been asked, and has given the responses by ANet.

Exactly what has been said, you don't like the answers. Asking the same damn thing again won't produce a different result.

Kashrlyyk · Oct 06, 2009, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

..... By entering the contest, winners have given us our word that they came up with the skill combination they submitted.

And that is the problem.

What is the chance that a person that doesn't know any of the meta builds that ever existed and doesn't know about any of the build fansites TO COME UP WITH the exact build as seen on PvXwiki or in observer mode within the short amount of time the contest lasted?
The fact that the builds are nearly exactly as on PvXwiki means they DID NOT COME UP WITH IT THEMSELVES. That is breaking exactly what you said in the quoted part. THIS IS THE PROBLEM!!!!!!

Quote:

...This is why the contest rules asked players to "devise potent, effective skill bars for the new henchmen in GvG and Heroes Ascent" and to come up with "great, competitive, henchman skill bars". ...

The highlighted words is exactly what the "winners" DID NOT DO!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia

...
You seem to be missing (more like ignoring) the point that upset so many. Here they are:

1. Martin specifically told us that gimmicks/meta builds would not be accepted, yet most of the builds there are gimmicks/meta builds.
2. Martin also said that they wanted robust builds that would be resistant to skill changes, yet there is a Mind Blast Ele bar that just got recently nerfed.
3. Mis-communication or not, anyone can see that you making these legal jargon up right now is you guys trying to avert blame/refusing that you screwed up, and this ignorance (obviously) pisses people off even more.
4. You wasted valuable time and resources into this contest even though you could have been spent the time on more dire issues.
5. You now need to waste even more time/resources adjusting the AI to make them even remotely useful; except that given your record, this will likely either take ages or won't even work, period.

There are obviously more, but you guys would probably ignore this, like you ignored most of the stuff that has been said by the community.

EDIT: Also couldn't help but notice, at the beginning of this thread, you posted the guidelines of this contest and told us that we should have followed those instead; now you're trying to re-word your own official rules in your favor to wash your hands clean. Bravo.

Exactly.